Hello everyone,

I had 233/94 on my step one score and I was not to happy with it so I decided to take step 2 before the interviews hopping to score much higher and increase much chances of matching. Unfortunately I got 220/89 (thanks to OB/GYN and Peds) and now I am kind of lost!!!!!!
Did I shoot my self on the foot?
How much did I hurt my self?
Any advices?

Thank you

GBM - 25 March 2007 12:06 PM

Hello everyone,

I had 233/94 on my step one score and I was not to happy with it so I decided to take step 2 before the interviews hopping to score much higher and increase much chances of matching. Unfortunately I got 220/89 (thanks to OB/GYN and Peds) and now I am kind of lost!!!!!!
Did I shoot my self on the foot?
How much did I hurt my self?
Any advices?

Thank you

You can’t change what has already happened. Keep your head up!

I’m a bit confused though, what year are you? If you are a third year, did you take Step 2 before year 3 is over?

I finished my third year last July (2006) and took a year off (personal reasons).

i’m not as far along as you, but according to the match statistics, you’re okay.
it seems that a common accepted perception is step 1 is way more important than step 2.  your step 1 is not exemplary, but is quite good, and certainly in the competitive range for a nsg program if you look at the match statistics.  i guess the year off makes you a non-traditional applicant, but based on those numbers alone, i think you’re alright.

all you can do now is do well on your rotations, get great letters, rotate at a few other programs, and do well on interviews.  barring any severe deficits in your application, i think many on this forum will agree that you’ve got a shot.

you’re certainly not a lost cause, and if neurosurgery is what you want, go for it.  i don’t think it’s out of reach for you.

can you give me some tips?

3rd year; step 1 230.  no AOA, no honors in classes.  “excellents” on most rotations, but no honors.  many publications (3 abstracts, 3 articles, 5 review articles, 2 chapters, several more on the way)

what do you suggest to increase my chances of matching?

I think you’re in a pretty good position. I had a slightly higher step 1 and similar pub’s and grades and matched at a program most consider top tier. Just get some good rec’s and be normal during your interviews and you’ll do fine.

Guest - 26 March 2007 07:49 AM

can you give me some tips?

3rd year; step 1 230.  no AOA, no honors in classes.  “excellents” on most rotations, but no honors.  many publications (3 abstracts, 3 articles, 5 review articles, 2 chapters, several more on the way)

what do you suggest to increase my chances of matching?

If you’re asian, matching well will be challenging and hard. If you’re a white male or a female of any ethnicity, you’ll match fine. Not trying to stoke any controversy but this is the truth. The AA in neurosurgery favors women and white males.

im not sure if i agree.  looking at the incoming residents for many institutions, i’d actually argue that they go against white individuals.  and it seems way more males than females.

but that may also be a by-product of a disproportionately large number of asians in medical school.  it may also be a by-product that more men than women are interested in neurosurgery, probably due to the time commitment and inflexibility if you want to take a year or so off to have a baby.

please do present your counterpoints though, as i believe this is the first mention of race in the process this far along.  i assumed at the level of medical training, affirmative action and other such racial and gender issues were out the window as we clearly don’t want substandard professionals performing neurosurgery.

actually, i’ve used neurosurgery as an argument against affirmative action. 

them: “you don’t need to be the brightest to graduate from harvard/yale/princeton/brown/dartmouth etc”
me: “right, and you don’t need the brightest people doing brain surgery.  let’s get the 800 SAT 2.0 GPA future hip-hop/blues/jazz dancing wanna-be to our residency program!”

thanks a lot for the input.
i’ve been in love with neurosurgery after having neuroscience in year 1 and have been actively involved in shadowing, research, etc. since.  i started by looking up all the residents in the area (med school in metropolitan area) and whenever i saw one at a coffee shop or such, i’d go up to them and strike a conversation.  soon i had research projects going on at several different schools and lots of publications.
i got so carried away with all of it, i’m afraid i may have put all my eggs in one basket.  i’ll be crushed if i don’t match.  i know i’ll be content as long as i’m in a surgical field, but all this time spent with different neurosurgeons in the OR and whatnot, i guess i ended up setting my sights too narrow.
anyway, fourth year is almost here, and i hope all goes well.  good luck to the rest of you prepping for next year’s match!

As someone who matched this year and interviewed at 15+ programs, I feel it is important to mention something I noticed about the other applicants on the trail.  While I am sure that the people I met had better than average board scores, grades, and LORs, (we didn’t discuss it), what I thought was remarkable, after getting to know many of them, was that most if not all had something very unique and impressive in their backgrounds/package.  I won’t mention any specifically, but the types of things that would give you pause.  I would go so far as to say that the people I met that matched were very well rounded, and I suspect that securing a spot is not guaranteed by showing up with great Step I, AOA, some papers, and good LORs.  The feedback I had in my interviews and from what I saw of other candidates, I would recommend making sure you remain well rounded throughout med school, whatever that means to you, and possibly sacrificing a few points on Step I or a few papers to maintain your interests and identity.

Also, I thought it was great that 99% of the people I met on the trail, I would be more than happy to work with – they were just cool people.  Similar work ethic, values, and sense of humor.

It would be interesting to hear if the upper level residents at programs involved with the process agree with this observation.

While I cannot comment on how it is done everywhere, I do believe that most programs do look for evidence of maturity and balance.  Residency is a bit of a crucible, and we want someone who has demonstrated the sinew to persevere in the face of adversity.  That may be what PJ is referring to, that the successful applicants have done something that demonstrates tremendous perseverance and dedication.

As for the notion of affirmative action in neurosurgery, this could be problematic.  I am aware of pressures to increase the number of women, as I am also aware of the widespread bias against women in neurosurgery.  Even by female neurosurgeons.  However, I have never heard of any agenda to discriminate against Asians, or Asian Americans in neurosurgery.  Looking at our program we have less than 30% of our residents who are white males.  I don’t think we’re the exception.

I believe that most programs are much more concerned about matching competent doctors than they are about meeting quotas.

if you’re an average caucasian male and asian male, all things equal, the white will match better. things being slightly inequal with the asian being better, you’ll match equal. hard but very true fact. most of the asians who match are superstars: AOA, step 1 250 plus, mult pubs , they know going in they don’t stand a chance unless they are tremendous, so the only asians who self-select are among the best. this knowledge that they are at a disadvantage is ingrained into them from college admissions. the attitudes of white males are that since they are white, they won’t be refused and go into the field with 230s, 240s, average grades, 1-2 pubs or none very often and match quite well.

last thing, the programs, especially west coast programs, that are highly merit-oriented, and accept candidates regardless of AA for white males, tend to be among the best in the country. if you look at programs where whites are almost over-represented and asians are intimidated away during interviews, you will find broader-evidence of mediocrity in NIH funds, reputation, quality of clinical activities (residents dont like to round in morning, lazy, lots of mistakes made, few publications etc.). You will certainly find that heavily merit-oriented programs are the best in regards to publishing, running a smooth clinical service and reputation.

Guest - 28 March 2007 05:28 PM

last thing, the programs, especially west coast programs, that are highly merit-oriented, and accept candidates regardless of AA for white males, tend to be among the best in the country. if you look at programs where whites are almost over-represented and asians are intimidated away during interviews, you will find broader-evidence of mediocrity in NIH funds, reputation, quality of clinical activities (residents dont like to round in morning, lazy, lots of mistakes made, few publications etc.). You will certainly find that heavily merit-oriented programs are the best in regards to publishing, running a smooth clinical service and reputation.

There is tremendous inequity in the world.  I am generally a supporter of affirmative action, especially in education.  I’m not sure that is has a place in neurosurgery despite the inequities.  But it sounds like you’re suggesting that there’s racism in the selection process, or at least ethnicism.  Is this true?

I guess it helps to have things categorized.  By west coast, I guess you mean UCSF, Stanford, and UW?  I mean,
they’re the only ones that appear on the NIH “top ten”.  What about the other six or so west coast programs?

It’s odd, because it seems that on this website, the programs that get high marks on reputation are mostly northeastern, ivy league programs.  Are they also asian friendly?  I honestly don’t know.

What about Persian candidates, do you consider them asian as well?  And subcontinental?  Middle Eastern probably not,
I suppose.

My experience is limited to the program where I am.  White males make up a small minority of our residents.  We love to operate (and to round), try not to make mistakes, and work and play very hard.  Despite our ranking in the top ten of NIH funding, our reputation is almost never discussed here.  So I don’t think we fit into your general scheme.  I bet we’re not the only ones.

Guest - 29 March 2007 05:06 AM

My experience is limited to the program where I am.  White males make up a small minority of our residents.  We love to operate (and to round), try not to make mistakes, and work and play very hard.  Despite our ranking in the top ten of NIH funding, our reputation is almost never discussed here.  So I don’t think we fit into your general scheme.  I bet we’re not the only ones.

I don’t know how a thread on the importance of Step 2 turned into affirmative action or NIH funding discussions

To the above poster, just curious, which program are you from?

I advise younger med students on occasion and am amazed at the disparity of asian and caucasian candidates. The caucasians on average score in the 230s, 240s and have few honors or pubs but aspire for MGH, JHU. The Asians have 250 and higher with multiple publications and awards and honors and will believe they can only get into high-middle tier programs. The sense of entitlement in the setting of abject mediocrity is stunning.

Hello everyone,

This message is for the moderators of this site.
Is there a way to move replies that have noting to do with the original topic?
I don’t understand why people hijack others posts? There is plenty of room in this forum so please post your own topic in a separate column if it has noting to do with the original topic. This only will keep this forum as good as it has been and prevent it from turning to another trashy forum.

Ok let’s do this one more time:

Hello everyone,

I had 233/94 on my step one score and I was not to happy with it so I decided to take step 2 before the interviews hopping to score much higher and increase much chances of matching. Unfortunately I got 220/89 (thanks to OB/GYN and Peds) and now I am kind of lost!!!!!!
Did I shoot my self on the foot?
How much did I hurt my self?
Any advice?

Thank you