Hello. I am a highschool Junior who is currently 17 years of age. I am applying to combined BS/MD and BS/DO programs. I will explain what they are should you ask, though I doubt I would need to. Anyway, my question concerns the effect of going into a combined BS/MD or DO program and wanting to go into neurosurgery. My top choice is Howard Medical School’s 6 year BS/MD program, and their mission isn’t exactly to train neurosurgeons. Would this in itself be a disadvantage? Would the reduced amount of time of undergrad be a negative effect should I desire to go into this specialty? Some of these programs let you do only 2-3 years of undergrad, so I wanted to know if this was a bad thing. Does it really only matter what you do in med school? Do you absolutely HAVE to go to an ivy league undergrad? Basically: Is there any disadvantage of applying to a neurosurgery residency out of a BS/MD or BS/DO program?

Haven’t applied yet myself, so take my advice for what it is worth.  I doubt that a combined program in and of itself would have much impact either way on an application for residency.  However, doing a BS/DO would make it very difficult to match into neurosurgery since being a DO would make matching an uphill battle.  Likewise, going to a lower rated MD program will not make it easy for you to match into neurosurgery (though by no means impossible).

What undergrad you went to does not appear to matter much for applying to neurosurgery residency, however what medical school you go to does and i would keep that in mind in considering combined programs.  Also for the record, I really enjoyed college and think that 4 years in undergrad is time well spent, but different strokes for different folks.

A DO will make it very difficult for you to apply for an MD neurosurgical residency, and you may only be able to get into a DO neurosurgical residency program. Going to a combined BS/MD program doesn’t help or hurt, but as youngjedi said, which school gives you your MD does play a role.  Below are the match lists for the past three years for you to browse:

2009: http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/2009_Match_List_for_Neurological_Surgery/
2008: http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/2008_Match_List_for_Neurological_Surgery/
2007: http://uncleharvey.com/index.php/wiki/2007_Match_List_for_Neurological_Surgery/

The only listed Howard match was in 2008, none in the other years (either they didn’t match, no one applied those years, or no one listed it in our list). Hope this helps in your decision-making, best of luck.

Thanks for the replies. Concerning D.O. programs though, I don’t think I would apply to Allopathic residencies unless I had amazing letters of recommendation and STEP 1 scores. But I digress. I would surely apply to Osetopathic Residencies, though I have heard many rumors of these residencies not being “up to par” with Allopathic ones. This is why I’m not applying to a lot of BS/DO programs, though with my grades/future SAT scores, I have no doubt that any BS/DO program I apply to would surely be a safety. On the contrary, however, I’ve heard amazing things about PCOM and NYCOM’s osteopathic neurosurgery residencies. The neurosurgeon I shadow happens to a D.O. (didn’t find this out until my second time shadowing) who graduated NYCOM some time ago, and entered the North Shore/LIJ Neurosurgery residency. Apparently it’s really amazing, according to him, and there is a lot of peds exposure. Not that I’m into peds, but it must be pretty great since I’ve heard the same thing throughout the hospital. Same goes for PCOM, but I haven’t met a doctor who has graduated from its neurosurgery residency. Anyway, the point is, the BS/DO programs I’m applying to are all connected with either PCOM or NYCOM, the only to Osteopathic schools I would really love to go to. Luckily for me, they both have neurosurgery residency programs! Of course I would still have to work hard, however.

Of course I will take the USMLE steps and apply to Allopathic residencies, but I doubt I would even get in one mainly because of the degree, even though the degree doesn’t exactly determine the intelligence or competence of a doctor. Thank you both for your replies and I hope to hear more.

If you’re planning neurosurgery I would avoid the DO degree. ALthough they may provide adequate training, you will be at a disadvantage at every level, from residency to fellowship to job hunting. There is just no reason to do that if you plan on doing neurosurgery. The DO degree may be looked at in equivalence in fields like internal medicine and family medicine, but it is often not in the surgery world. Regardless of what the truth is you will be often judged as an inferior applicant to residency.

I also think combined programs are a disadvantage. If you are just looking for the easy way through, forget about it. The one or two years you save will mean nothing. Go to the best college you can , the best medical school you can, the best residency you can, whatever that might be for you in particular. Taking shortcuts now is unlikely to be an advantage in the end.

I can see as to why you would be against the whole thing, but my reasoning behind doing a combined degree program at all is basically financial. I can’t afford to go to the “best” colleges and I can’t afford to “enjoy the whole college experience”...simply because I don’t have the money. That and because I don’t think I would enjoy the “whole college” experience anyway. In my area, at least, 95% of the college experience is smoking bogeys, getting drunk, and singing the night away at a bar. It’s just not my scene. 

I know there are loans and financial aid, but that’ll mean I will just end up in debt. Sure there are scholarships, but I don’t want to end up 100k+ in debt from undergrad alone because I decided to go to the “best” one I could for four years (and by the best, it usually means the most expensive). If anything, I would rather be in debt from med school, and not undergrad. There’s never an easy way through, and neurosurgery is definitely the hardest specialty imaginable, but I’m going the BS/MD or DO route because I know that in highschool, I want to be a doctor. Thanks for your input. I will be sure to keep in mind the stigma of being a D.O., but I’m not sure if it will completely refute my attempts to even go into Neurosurgery just yet. I mean...the surgeon I shadow seems to be having it good, but I will be shadowing him again tomorrow actually, so I will be asking him the same question.

One other thing.  Long Island Jewish/north shore is starting an allopathic medical school in the next few years, so I’m not sure if the residency there would neccesarily remain a DO one.  Also, you are going to be in a fair amount of debt if you go to medical school.  You are much better off being in debt and having the opportunity to do what you love than being in debt and having your options limited.  The extra year of college will cost 20-60k depending on where you go, which while it might seem incredibly daunting, will be something that you will be able to pay off without too much difficulty if you become a doctor.  Also, there are NIH loan repayment programs for people who do research, MD/PHD programs, armed service programs etc that could pay some or all of your medical school costs if you are averse to having debt.

"I also think combined programs are a disadvantage. If you are just looking for the easy way through, forget about it. The one or two years you save will mean nothing. Go to the best college you can , the best medical school you can, the best residency you can, whatever that might be for you in particular. Taking shortcuts now is unlikely to be an advantage in the end.”

That’s quite an inflammatory statement for a moderator like you to make. I don’t think going through a combined program is “the easy way out” as you suggest. In many ways it is more challenging since it requires disciplined focus and maturity beginning at an earlier age when most of your peers are trying to “figure things out.” There are many neurosurgeons and neurosurgery residents who have come through programs like these.

The reason the combined program is a disadvantage is that it limits what medical school you will go to. My whole point is that it is not easy so why limit yourself. Just go to the best college for you and the best medical school for you. These may be the same school or a different school. Why limit your options so early? Just to save a year? My point is that this in not an advantage for someone going into neurosurgery. It is a disadvantage because it limits your options.

I live in the Northeast, so just for clarification, the “best” for me would be an Ivy League School...which I cannot afford for sure. One year of tuition from those schools would essentially be like paying 2 years of undergrad at Howard (which is my top choice + I have family in D.C.)

I’d look into the financial aid packages at different Ivy league schools before making assumptions about cost.  It varies a lot from school to school, but there are several Ivy league schools where if your cost of attendance would end up much lower if your family doesn’t make very much money.  Not making any assumptions about your situation, but I had many friends who graduated college from Ivy league schools debt free, and with their families paying little to nothing, so that might be your best bet even from a financial perspective.  Also, you can apply to combined programs and college at the same time and see what your options are at the end.

If you go to a mediocre university plan on working two or three times as hard to get into med school.  If you go to a mediocre med school plan on working five or ten times harder to get into residency.  A mediocre med school is one that does not routinely have many graduates go into neurosurgery (a great med school has 4 or more per year; a mediocre one has one or fewer per year - the rest are somewhere in between.)

no name please - 06 December 2009 06:05 PM

A mediocre med school is one that does not routinely have many graduates go into neurosurgery (a great med school has 4 or more per year; a mediocre one has one or fewer per year - the rest are somewhere in between.)

That sounds like what mediocre students at good med schools tell themselves when applying to residency. Schools that are defined as “good” above have students that find match success for reasons other than the school that they attend. Read: research, good letters of rec, connections. Some of these stem from home institution but overall a good applicant will find success no matter what school they attend.

To the OP: you may not think that college is your thing right now, but that will change. Giving college 2-3 years before leaving is profoundly unwise. One year in college is worth 10 on the outside. You will NEVER have the chance to learn whatever you want while living in the same building as most of your friends with little to no responsibility. NEVER AGAIN. Passing up on this so that you can avoid debt and get out one year early is crazy. You have the rest of your life to be a doctor. You have the rest of your life to pay off $40k more debt. When you are old/out college you will (most likely) find yourself willing to trade the money for the time in college. There is a lot to be gained from college in terms of life experience and class wise. Learn advanced math, engineering or science that you will not get in med school. Learn to discuss philosophy, pick up another language, take lessons in a new instrument. Med school in incredibly myopic. You will have few options to gain this knowledge once you are done. It just won’t happen. It is great to know that you want to be a doctor now, in high school. But many of those kids change their minds in college and find something that interests them much more. I know, you’re different. You really know this is it. And you’re willing to sacrifice a couple of years that are the best of your life to get to your goal that much faster. When you’re fifty and working you won’t care about the money you saved or the couple extra years you got back. You’ll want to call up your old roommates and remember the times you went partying or all the late nights working when you went half insane.

Bottom line: if you don’t enjoy college you’re doing it wrong. Or you’re a sociopath.

Edit: and to say that your only options for college are ivy is also crazy. There are so many good schools outside the Northeast. If you really have to stay by family that’s fine, otherwise try and get out and meet people that are radically different from anyone you know.

I really don’t think I’m going to fork in so much cash for undergrad...especially since I’m pursuing medicine. Oh, and I don’t think I need to waste my time with another language. I speak two others: Hindi and Spanish. There’s no way I’m learning more. I don’t want to take philosophy, ever. Sorry.

I’m not looking for the “college experience”. It’s just not gonna happen with me. Partying isn’t my scene. (oh no!) Many people tell me that these are “The best years of your life”. To that, I usually wonder how much of their life they actually enjoyed, and how much of it must have sucked big time, because it’s (for me) a bit concerning to dwell on a measly four years of your life as THE BEST that you’ll ever experience in your life. Ever. When you say that college is the BEST four years of your life, this usually means that it’s going to go downhill from thereon. There are so many other things in life that are more enjoyable, and could better constitute as “the best years of your life”...but is undergrad, of all things, really THE best thing I’ll ever experience in MY life? Guilty, to you, it’s just another “measly 40k”, but that’s actually a lot of money these days. Not everybody is made out of money, and I’m not willing to pay left-over debt from undergrad when I graduate medical school. Believe it or not, many people like myself, are not willing to trade 2 years of debt for 2 more years of undergrad.

Good for you. Keep in mind that BS/MD programs aren’t going to necessarily save you money either, especially if you go to one like RPI/Albany Medical College, USC/Keck SOM, etc.

Kroger - 08 December 2009 04:32 PM

Good for you. Keep in mind that BS/MD programs aren’t going to necessarily save you money either, especially if you go to one like RPI/Albany Medical College, USC/Keck SOM, etc.

To be honest, I’ll be lucky if I get into one, let alone Howard’s 6 year program. I’ve heard they’re really good with tuition, and my uncle went there as well, though he wasn’t black. We’ll see.